blog.bioethics.net

regardless if conditions were deteriorating or not, there is no excuse to end patients lives. Fate is not in the doctors and nurses hands, a lot can change and miracles can happen. If this did take place, these people should be held accountable for there actions. My pesonal opinion is it was wrong no matter what the conditions were.

- by aimee on Feb 19, 2006 at 3:41 PM | link

regardless if the conditions were deterioirating or not, these actions are unacceptable, legally and morally wrong. Fate is not held in the nurse and doctors hands. Who are they to decide that someone's life should be taken. no matter how bad the situations was, it still doesn't make ending someones life acceptable. These are the kind of trials and tribulations that we will go through, it's part of life and part of a little thing called the end times, this is all expected!

- by aimee on Feb 19, 2006 at 3:49 PM | link

On the odd chance that this comment gets through...
There's one part of the account that suggests the motives were more complex and motivated by perceived self-preservation on the part of the medical people whose jobs were to stay with the stranded patients:
"According to statements given to an investigator in the attorney general's office, LifeCare's pharmacy director, the director of physical medicine and an assistant administrator say they were told that the evacuation plan for the seventh floor was to "not leave any living patients behind," and that "a lethal dose would be administered," according to their statements in court documents."
This looks a little more like medical people clearing the way for their own evacutation than "mercy" to me.

- by Stephen Drake on Feb 20, 2006 at 1:27 PM | link

What did these witnessess really over hear or see? Is there proof that these patients died due to a lethal dose of pain killers? It is a shame that the doctor or staff would even have to consider this. I can't imagine what a chaotic place that might have been, but no one has the right to end someones life. What a big legal mess.

- by Esther Long on Feb 20, 2006 at 1:29 PM | link

I think this article cites little factual information as to what really happened at Memorial Medical Center. After I read it, it seemed like something one would have read in Star or the National Enquirer rather than a bioethics blog. I think if something like this is going to be up for discussion, at least all the facts should be presented. I was quiet disappointed such an article was even posted.

- by Karrah on Feb 20, 2006 at 5:23 PM | link

The sad truth of this article is that no one may really know what went on at that hospital during the Katrina disaster. I can only hope that these medical professionals would not do what they are being accused of. That hospital had to have been a living hell, but I would hope that they would not have resorted to mercy killings. What people may have heard or seen may not have been what was really going on. The place was in total chaos. Their discussions may have been taken out of context. It will be difficult to acquire much factual information from this case. I can only imagine that during all of that, documentation was the furthest thing from their minds. It is also hard to judge them. Unless you were there and went through it, you have no idea what it was like for those doctors and nurses. If they did do these things,I don't agree with it. It would be tragic if this were the case. I can't imagine being pushed to such desperate measures. We are the patients advocate and protector, in any situation.

- by Jan B. on Feb 21, 2006 at 12:20 AM | link

Frankly, Jan, one problem is that the term "mercy killing" implies all too much, both about the motives of the killers and the nature of what was done to victims.
Wouldn't it be more appropriate for NPR, the media in general, and the editors of this blog to just drop the "mercy" and refer to them as "killings"? The term seems to just doesn't exactly seem to illuminate a meaningful discussion in any way, especially in a messy story like this one. It does quite the opposite.

- by Stephen Drake on Feb 21, 2006 at 7:41 PM | link

As horrible as it seems, it could have happened. Think of what we read or see on the news each day. The sad fact is, if you can think it, it has already happened. I don't want to believe this, but the health care providers as well as the patients were in a devastating situation and may not have been able to see an end in sight. It can also be a case that we may never know the real truth. Maybe the people over hearing this were so psychologically overloaded that it wasn't what they were hearing at all. How about PTSD? We may never know.

- by M J Nick on Feb 21, 2006 at 8:04 PM | link

I must be living in a vacuum. I did not hear of any euthansia during Katrina. I am not sure that I would be able to condone this kind of behavior. Nurses and doctors should not have a problem making the right choice. I like what I do for a living and this kind of act on patient's lives would be more than criminal. How could these people live with themselves after that. How do they know that these people would die from Katrina, is it better to put them down first. I just do not see that there was a choice. I would have to do whatever I can do to save them, risking my own life if need be. I am a healer not a killer.

- by Karen Nellis on Feb 21, 2006 at 8:35 PM | link

I agree that this kind of behavior among medical professionals is morally wrong and shows only the degredation of the medical hippocratic oath. We are first to do no harm. There is no way knowing that these people would have died or ever been hurt during the storm and even if they were sure they were going to die, it is best to let mother nature do it. I would have to do what I could inclusive of dying to save my patients.

- by Karen Nellis on Feb 21, 2006 at 8:59 PM | link

It is unfortunate that discussion of the tragic situation of these patients--and doctors--as well as the tragic decision which they may have made is being treated as an occassion for sound-bites. Instead it offers the opportunity for thoughtful discussion of many issues:
What, if any, conditions might justify "mercy killing" or nonvoluntary or involuntary euthanasia? Do any of those condemning the physicians here truly believe their actions (if euthanasia occured) are comparable to Nazi physicians. (The flood waters were rising in New Orleans. Help was requested but unavailable. Even staff apparently had difficulty evacuating. The patients who were euthanized were apparently immobile and bedbound, the sickest in the facility, and overwhelmingly quite elderly. There was a risk that looters, definitely roaming the city, might enter the hospital to steal drugs and who knows what else.
Power and AC were out--Which is crueler, to be left behind in rising flood waters or to receive a lethal bolus of narcotics?)
There seems to be a reflexive need to pass judgement rather than consider what alternatives existed and what the motivations involved might have been

- by David L. Oshin, MD on Feb 21, 2006 at 10:32 PM | link

The conditions under which that staff worked under are unimaginable to me. God bless each one of them. I do hope that these claims of lethal injections are false. I saw an expose' on them and it will take a lot of proof for me to believe these accusations. It makes no sense to me, that because the patient might die during transport, may as well just finish him off now.It would also be upsetting, that when pain medications were probaly at a premium, they might have been used as lethal injections. Those staff members were extrodinary people, and I hope these charges will all be disproved.

- by Lu Ann on Feb 21, 2006 at 11:02 PM | link

This "reflexive need to pass judgment" is exactly what I see in the use of the term "mercy killing," which - to repeat myself - implies a lot about the motives of the killer and the nature of the act. That's why I suggest dropping the term "mercy killing" in favor of just plain old "killing" or maybe "euthanasia," since that comes in at least three flavors - voluntary, nonvoluntary and involuntary. Strangely, no one I know is using the last term to describe lethal injections of death row inmates.
I don't know if the staff members were "extraordinary people" - I know that both they - and the *patients* (let's not totally objectify them) were left in that hellhole. If there was a choice to be made who should have made them? Could be some of those patients would have wanted to take their chances on evacuation or being left alone against the alternative of a sure death.

- by Stephen Drake on Feb 22, 2006 at 1:09 PM | link

Dr. Olshin and Mr. Drake,
Killing is not consistent with the other actions of the doctors and nurses at the hospital. From what I remember reading, after the power went out many of the patients were hand-ventilated as long as possible. When it became obvious that "bagging" was not temporary and then no longer became possible (because of fatigue and few staff available), I imagine that meds were given to relieve the suffering - but not directly intended to cause death.
I know that I would still feel guilt, even in such a scenario when doctors and nurses were doing the best they could with what they had.
I agree with "Karrah" that this reads like a tabloid item.

- by Beverly on Feb 24, 2006 at 3:20 AM | link

There, but for the Grace of God, go I.....I'm not going read snippets of events that took place over days (24/7) and then attempt to "what if" those events and the judgment of the professionals involved. "What if" situations are difficult to resolve because the arguments (pro/con) are based upon speculation. That leads to scapegoating not fact finding. No doubt, the most important defense would be to address causation. The simplest prosecution would be to address "murdering" of patients. Point to consider: when the Nazi's were over-running European cities during WWII, it is documented that Drs. in hospitals and mental institutions administered lethal drugs to the terminally ill and physically/mentally handicapped because of the of the fate that lay before them. Once again, tough decisions that I'm glad I didn't have to make....There, but for the Grace of God, go I.

- by pmcclain on Feb 25, 2006 at 8:58 PM | link

It seems that it is not truly known what really happened in New Orleans at the facility. It certainly would not have been up to the staff to decide that the best thing for the patients was not to try and evacuate. Understandably, most patients would probably not survive an evacuation, but to make the decision to end their lives before the attempt was made is unthinkable. On the other hand, I was not there, so to make an assumption would be unfair. As a healthcare professional it is hard to watch patients who are obviously suffering. It is difficult to make a judgement because I only saw what was occurring through newscasts. To lose power on mechanically ventilated patients, and to have the staff who was riddled with fatigue physically "bag" the patients would eventually become impossible. At this point, the patients may even have been lucky that they were able to be given medications to ease their pain when so many local New Orleans residents died while suffering.

- by Rebecca R. on Feb 28, 2006 at 1:47 PM | link

I believe this article has very few facts and we cannot judge on what little information is given to us. I'm sure there is alot of information that is being left out. "Beverly" includes in her enrty that with the loss of power there would be loss of ventilation, doctors and nurses are able to do so much with so little. I can agree with administering pain meds to those to relieve pain and stress , However, if this did place place as "mercy killings" it was uncalled for. It is not up to a doctor or nurse on whether a patient should live or die. I think we need to be told the entire story before placing judgement.

- by C.Wolbert on Feb 28, 2006 at 2:55 PM | link